Email: melinda@tropicalwriting.com.au     Phone Number AU: 0400703836
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#140 Writing Life Out Loud: A Story Told in Real Time, with Lisa Messenger

Lisa Messenger writes her books in real time – almost like a journal. Sometimes the results aren’t pretty, but they’re real.

Messenger is an Australian entrepreneur, author, and the founder and CEO of Collective Hub, an international multimedia business and lifestyle platform.

She is also an international speaker, best-selling author, and an authority on disruption.

She writes books in real time, her latest being Risk & Resilience, the story of the tough lessons she’s learned during the last eighteen months of her entrepreneurial journey. Her story isn’t pretty, but it’s heartfelt and we learn about the cost and responsibility of a successful career where people rely on you to lead the way.

It’s a story about how to survive, thrive and prosper through pivotal times, and how taking time out to re-charge is paramount.

Today, we chat about what it takes to write out loud, to share the details of the hard times as well as the good, and what we can all learn from Lisa’s journey.

And why, sometimes, bigger isn’t necessarily better.

You can find out more about Lisa, her books, courses and Collective Hub here and here.

 

Read Full Transcript

Mel: Welcome to another episode of writer on the road. Today's guest doesn't need an introduction because we all know and love her. Welcome, Lisa messenger.

Lisa: That is a beautiful introduction.

Mel: Lisa is an international speaker, best-selling author and an authority on disruption in both the Corporate sector and the startup scene.

Lisa: I love that word disruption. It's funny to say I'm an authority on disruption. I think when I was at school they may have worded it slightly differently. How it was that disruptive notion back then that saw me sitting in the hallways outside the classroom for the majority of my school life.

Lisa: But I'm still that same little punk rebel. Asking how to buck the status quo and always try to find a different better way of doing things.

Lisa: It's just that. Strangely enough that's kind of celebrated now hopefully a slightly more for nest and I get a girl a little bit spiritually and emotionally since the school days. But anyway it's an interesting space.

Mel: I'm the English teacher teaching the drop out student and the student's famous and I'm still there in the classroom.

Mel: This is a bit of a personal story for me but I do have the woman who has influenced my journey over the last I guess well over five years. The current book you have out there is Risk & Resilience and we're going to talk at length about that one today. But the book that started mine was Money & Mindfulness. It's been out a few years hasn't it?

Lisa: Yes, beautiful it gives me shivers when I hear that because I think there's so many people in this world that we all of us don't connect with or you know just silently doing something that is helping other people and then suddenly you have this connection and you hear about the impacts and that's very beautiful and I look forward to hearing your story.

Mel: Let's talk about money and mindfulness. We think we know all about it until we haven't got any. I found myself in a situation where I didn't have any I had two young children we were travelling in our caravan and everybody through Coffs Harbour and I went into the news agency and I found this amazing little what I thought was a paperback book in a news agency. I didn't have any money and I splurged out I think it was 30 bucks of my last hundred and bought this thing because it had pictures of the ocean. Lisa, that was such a practical book but full of joy and life because of the images, because of the topography and you've carried that through to your current books. It's more than just a How-To book isn't it?

Lisa: That is a beautiful thing. It's a big thing in being unafraid and courageous enough to invest in ourselves even when things are you know I've been through that many times myself. I wrote that book because in March 2013 I started a print magazine and it was collective hub and it was 11 years into my entrepreneurial journey. So I kind of go well when something finally worked it was like an 11 year overnight success and that magazine within 18 months was in 37 countries like it was crazy but people kept saying to me but how are you doing this.

Lisa: You must have all this money and I said No I don't have no money.

Lisa: And so I really wanted to write my books in real time and win people to understand the journey that I'd been on the mind set and you know perceived or real barriers that I had to overcome and that there are no more currencies than cash. That was really important to me about how do we find like minded non-competing businesses and how do we kind of remove cash as the only currency and sort of thing. Well I love what you're doing and I love what you're doing what's the value exchange you know and how can we actually work together so leave it to the higher and the other premise of that book is that I think I used to feel that money was a dirty word for years and I kept myself kind of small and I felt guilty. You know the very thought of making money and I had to kind of shift my own mindset and go and worthy of this and so largely that was also about making money or making profit and doing good in the world don't have to be mutually exclusive and in fact what I've learnt is that we need to make money to have freedom and platform and choice.

Lisa: And so now I'm very comfortable with the notion of making money because unfortunately as much as we can trade other currencies and other things sometimes like print bills you know you have to pay with cold hard cash. So yeah the book was very practical and a lot of the mind set and the tools it kind of helps me on my journey to expand from literally you know zero dollars and three staff under the age of 25 entering into a highly saturated market that I knew nothing about that people said was dead or done things that I that's really a book about how I overcame all of that I guess and look it's a really cool story everybody and it's the one that I will remember for ever.

Mel: But then we move forward to the new book, Risk & Resilience and again it's this little 'live in the moment' experience true story that has reached out and touched the rest of us.

Lisa: The premise starting Collective Hub was to I was so sort of sick of the media at the time how you would read about these extraordinary people.

Lisa: But there was something lacking there. I was always asking what's the story behind the story. How did they start. Why did they start. How did they get funded. How did they find distribution. I was always perplexed and confused about this.

Lisa: So that's kind of the premise on which I started the magazine and then I thought whoa it's kind of my you see I felt to write books to actually tell my own story behind the story so people could you know relate in real time. So I've actually written six books in the last four and a half years. But yes the latest one risk and resilience is anything but pretty. And I started writing that in October 2016 when the collective hub started hitting the skids a little bit. So it was interesting going from three staff you know everyone on minimum wage suddenly had 32 staff and over three million dollars in fixed salaries. And it happened very very quickly and suddenly it as a creative and a visionary and a leader I found myself in this kind of horrible situation of systems and processes and I andH.R. and legal and finance and yark and I just was kind of drowning every day thinking well this isn't fun and I started questioning will is bigger better.

Collective Hub has given me the wildest journey of my life, like amazing in so many lessons but um but suddenly got quite ugly so I started writing this book October 2016 thinking it would have a very different ending and unfortunately as I got further into writing the book the business kind of went on this trajectory of you know it kind of got worse and worse before it got better.

Lisa: So I was like well I said I've tried it I put it out there and I think it's only through doing that and being authentic and raw and real and kind of going well. This is the reality of a high growth startup and an entrepreneurial journey which often isn't pretty. And I think it's given other people permission to kind of go Wow. You know your purpose and you can remain the same but if the delivery mechanism is actually drowning you as it was me then sometimes it's time to break a few things. So I did that and I've never felt so purposely fabulous.

Lisa: I built a business and found that it was actually to not what I wanted it took away. You mentioned that creative visionary in that creative journey and suddenly you're surrounded in paperwork and you're dying under it and you you have to pull back and that's what really intrigued me in your story.

Mel: You paid right back and got rid of it all. You knew before you could come out of the ashes phoenix like an end rebuild.

Lisa: Thank you. That was a very difficult time with some kind of brave and courageous just like passes and also you know surrounding myself with some people way smarter than me who I had to listen to and they literally like you know cut the guts out of the business the cost base is way too heavy. And so I just for the first time in my life just listened to these people were like on a daily basis and the guy that helped me Damien dig out of it he was meant to be with me for four days and he said I've never seen anyone just follow something to the T. So he stayed with me through the whole ugly journey of you know about 14 months or something he just stuck by my side and helps me wind out of it and the only way I can describe it is I just kept saying I just have to break everything like literally you know close the print magazine 52 issues in five years and you know make people redundant just cut the guts out of the cost base and get intimate with my data again and understand kind of where it had gone wrong and it did that really quickly and it was only a few months really after I broke everything and then I was like oh my gosh it's so obvious where you know these mistakes kind of happened and so now I'm building back up in a much more sustainable you know a much more sustainable way which will give longevity to my purpose so yeah I'm excited. I feel like I'm back in flow I have energy am again surrounded by fabulous people and you know I'm able to kind of breathe again as a creative.

Mel: It's exciting because I would actually call what you're doing now you're almost in Indie aren't you. You've moved out of the corporate you moved out of the traditional and now you're going Indie you're flying solo you're hiring freelancers and you're moving forward with purpose.

Lisa: My head of my advisory board is chatting to him a few days ago and I said you know it's so great to be out the other side of that big failure.

Lisa: And he said to me failure what do you make like that sort of failure. And I just thought oh yeah you know so many people.

Lisa: I mean I think it's great because you read about so many you know big global companies ABM Bay and pretty much everyone who's done anything big in the world has had you know some kind of big almost closure and then they've gone okay. Cut cut the guts out of it go back to basics now let's rebuild Phoenix like as you said and say hey it was like no this is the best thing you ever did. And and since then I have actually so many things have happened. I've had extraordinary other business women and men who have like Samantha wills. You know she's got the jury company she started in 2004. Jodie Fox she started her business. She's a prayer I think she got 30 million dollar investment or something last year. All these people have closed their businesses ready for the ultimate pivot and I think hopefully they have given permission to people to be unafraid to just go now. This is working you know I'm just going to close and work out what the next iteration is. And history will say that a lot of people now want to invest in whatever's next.

Mel: I guess you know how to not mess it up again.

Lisa: And I think that's really the best thing is messing it up. I think getting in this is an entrepreneur.

Mel: Lisa is an entrepreneur's entrepreneur. Are you getting in there doing it. Messing it up learning by your mistakes learning by your growth. I did see a few pictures of you with Richard Branson so I think I read a bit of fun in that.

Lisa: Do you know what the it was the first time.

Lisa: And still it's I mean gosh and yet Richard Branson I mean I spent time on his private island with him and then I ended up chairing the Virgin where conference with him so set on stage with him for three hours in 2016 at the Art Gallery of New South Wales. You know I was the only person in Australia to have Jamie Oliver on my cover last year when he was at Yes I've spent a lot of time with them like you know Anna Wintour the doyenne of Vogue and you know Devil Wears Prada September Issue. She asked me to go meet with her in New York and I did that because collective had you know come on to her read. Yet John Cleese you name it I've had a pretty good.

But when you step into something so big you know it.

Lisa: It's not for the faint hearted you know but the beautiful thing is that because as you mentioned I've chosen to be an entrepreneur for entrepreneurs living my life out loud showing that anything's possible. I believe that you know going to that that space of nearly kind of going under was actually perfect for me because it's only having been there that I can now warn other people do that you know bigger isn't better use specialists not generalists like a decentralized workforce of freelancers and consultants is amazing because as we all know you can dip in and do power and bring them in project by project and there's so many things I've learnt.

Lisa: I'm very grateful I don't want to repeat the journey that I'm very grateful for this indie publishing world everybody we've got a fellow called Tim grow and he wrote I think we should have thirty thousand copies and now he's gone on he's put out a story. Well this is the real journey and it's really ugly and I didn't do this easily and even running the book was a trauma. We all see the shiny bits do we. We all see the shiny magazine but we don't see the work and the tears and clearly they would have been a few tears behind risk and resilience because the decision hurt. .

Lisa: You know as a leader and a visionary it's very difficult and it sounds like you've been through some of this and all go through a certain degree but you know fronting up to that office every day through that period and kind of saying okay you know let's change the world.

Lisa: And then come home and just falling in a heap you know crying. I should go and get the money to pay for everything. Yeah I mean that's the ironic thing in a way was that the magazine was still growing which was extraordinary and our digital footprint and our events were also still growing I mean we worked through that period often running up to four events a week and so it has a business very much you know growing and the community was loving it. The problem was I had way too many people on the way to higher salaries you know and way too many big costs involved with the business I just was never going to work in that iteration.

Lisa: Personally I'm assuming there is a there's a personal cost to losing your freedom. There's a personal cost to the responsibility of of of having to keep all those people employed. I mean I think I read somewhere that you knowing that you were working these people to the capacity and the stress involved in all that.

We don't know because I haven't but the systems and processes in place it meant a lot of what we were doing was grossly inefficient and I would have you know six direct reports and four of them would be coming to me saying hey we need to do this and was like the other person doing that and you know it so that was very interesting going from a very small team of three where you know everyone kind did everything and we all knew exactly what was going on and we were also passionate to suddenly I think it was almost like you know I would have an idea and then it would be filtered down through 3 eight people before it actually got implemented. So I think there was a lot at way too many people involved you know. And so in future what I would say and I'm saying to any creative is get really intimate with your data and have a great to see alongside of me who is all about or you know whatever that is that can be a freelancer just some great financial person who is kind of slicing and dicing data. I'm always surprised by creatives and how much they can like to see what I'm doing but I really know from charging right into her and I put something up on my Instagram. Yes I think the most likes I've ever say it was about being creative and charging appropriately so that's really important I think. Otherwise it's fun for a while but then we do burn out and we get resentful because we like it myself and everyone else is making all this money and having a great time.

Mel: That's one of the things that we indie writers and creatives come up against all the time is coming to terms with the fact that we can have a creative person at one stage of the day but at the other stage of the day we have to get on top of that. We have to know what's going on behind the scenes and it's just such an unfamiliar hand that you can make mistakes can't you. Before you learn the ropes but you started somewhere and look you in now.

Lisa: I wrote my first book in 2004 and was called Happinesses and I self published back then. I Just started to kind of learn about it and then so I've actually written a lot of books but no one read any and all that. I read like 24 books.

Lisa: I don't think anyone read the first 800 although I don't know what number mine was but the money went was fantastic.

Lisa: But I think the latest one everyone and there's been a couple of really good ones I think finding your purpose was one of them but that Risk & Resilience is really a key word nowadays we throw it around like anything because things go wrong and good people have bad things happen to them and you come out the other side of it.

Mel: Now I know you might have been at Bangalow which is northern NSW.

Lisa: Last January I just decided to move physically away from the office because I find when you're in office you know you can be busy but not necessarily productive and also suddenly things coming out you all the time we just react react react.

Lisa: I was like I physically have to remove myself from space to like think clearly and go What is the next move you know. It wasn't a decision that I made lightly and it took some time.

Lisa: I think that you know whether it's just moving to a different suburb or doing something counterintuitive to the norm and just removing yourself see you've got that time and space to actually think about what is the best use of me like what's the best situation for me otherwise. So many of us just get caught up in the daily grind and living life according to other people's expectations.

Mel: You're is a born risk taker but they're very calculated risks. Bangalow is its outside Byron Bay. It's this little man and police used to have a little bookshop and they'd rip your books in brown paper and string before brown paper and string were fashionable and where markets were really you know organic food and stuff like that. You bought real estate. You seemed to have a bit of an eye or a bit of a knack for jumping aboard things that would appear risky but I'm sure you take some steps to minimize that risk.

Lisa: I mean a lot of what I do is just applying a mindset flip to anything. So I did what property I think it was two thousand taps I like WhatsApp nearly nine years ago and it was I remember distinctly I was on the market for like 920000 and I made some ridiculous offer like 562 food because I just feel like a dope.

Lisa: You know the bank won't lend it to me. And it was obviously way overinflated on the market then. Anyway we ended up meeting somewhere in the middle and I think we're not even in the middle I think paid like 590000. I actually wrote a book called property investing the Australian way after I bought that cause because I realised that actually you know sometimes you can you know buy something and get a great deal if it's kind of off market and whatever whatever. And then I proceeded to kind of cosmetically do it up myself but I've done lots of different things with that property. I can often using other currencies than cash so what's in it for you what's in it for me. So I did a bit of a cosmetic renovation got some free furniture and things and then did stories on these people in the mag so I lost that way of thinking I think anyone can apply that it's about or if they don't have cash at the time it's like well what else can I trade. What are my salable tangible assets how can I help you how can you help me and I really apply that to everything and then business and life become kind of fun because suddenly you're just like well okay cash isn't the only thing how can we just do all together so yeah I haven't played it to many industries not just publishing and writing.

Mel: You can see what this woman is a international speaker of very high repute. You motivate and you inspire. You talk about living your life out loud. You Write about it and you put it on paper so that the rest of us can go hey that's what we've been doing and that's what we're going to do. Now you have moved from a print magazine to online masterclasses and with phenomenal success I believe.

Lisa: Yes thank you. So again I think anyone can do this and I guess the nice thing about it is so many of us particularly as writers as kind of thinking about what are the different revenue streams so you can do a print magazine or write a book but then you know how can we turn that into other forms of content. So actually my first book in this series starring in disruptive and then money and mindfulness I decided well there's turned Chart 10 chapters or whatever in each book. Why don't I actually film you know masterclasses and create worksheets around them so that people who don't necessarily want to read the book but they want to actually immerse themselves in a different way of learning or they've read the book and now they actually want to follow it up with some practical letting so you know turn them into masterclasses. And they've been really really popular but I think the message around that is that you know for us content creators it's about how do we create content once and then how do we slice and dice it across multiple channels be they you know the printed word you know digital video across social media channels and I think that's something so many people get confused about they like. But do I read a blog or do a post or Instagram or what do I do when I'm like cool if I'm interfering. Melinda well let's do an hour interview and then let's try and slice and dice that into different format so that you know it has long Javadi and it can reach different people at a time. Then once on a platform they want in the way they want. So that's kind of what I did the digital master classes were fun. It was good playing with a different format.

Mel: And they're not that expensive. I had a fossick yesterday. They were a hundred and fifty dollars or something so they may go up the more popular they become they're quite achievable and the books are so motivating.

Mel: I'm assuming the master is having you live on camera would be really motivating as well.

Lisa: It was a fun to record it in. And I think this is really practical worksheets and things so hopefully people get a lot out of them so they're just on Collective Hub. Some people can jump on there and have a look.

Mel: Now there is another print issue coming out of collective hug. Now that's been a huge decision to make hasn't it.

Lisa: I need to get really clear about this. What happened was when it broke everything and you know really cut the guts out of the space and really looked at everything. I suddenly realized that. I had already commissioned a full issue so we paid freelance writers and my editor and everyone to produce issue 53.

Lisa: That never actually went to print so I was in such a you know panic know close it all down and then I was like wow I've got an entire issue that never saw the light of day sitting there. So once I'd had a bit of time and space to breathe recalibrate you know pay what I needed to pay.

Lisa: I said to my editor Amy and my art director who worked at me for years I said hey should we bring this issue that never made the light of day out at Christmas time and they both said a resounding yes. And my head of logistics and distribution Jodi who's also been with me about seven years now she was banging on to me about you know we need to bring out one shots and everything like pretty much the day I close and I said type it.

Lisa: I mean it was quite extraordinary news think Smith and all the news agencies and people who had supported us. You know when I floated the idea and said look if we brought back a one shot at Christmas time would you guys support it and they all said of course you know any time you want to bring my back space is yours and so when it was already commissioned to my team we're like Yep let's do a three hour distribution channels and retail outlets were just so supportive and for our community frickin loved it and I love it so.

Lisa: The 3rd of December there will be one issue and then my hope is now that I've sort of broken everything and can do it much sustainably. I would try it Myrrha promises to bring not to print issues each year but just to not 12 like I was doing it and look back when you look back you wonder how insane was that but when you're in the middle of it you don't even notice do you.

Mel: You just do it.

Lisa: But actually what I do love about print is when I really looks at it all and got you know again as I said intimate with the data and the numbers I realised that actually print wasn't the big issue it was you know just having way too many people working in the business on you know way too broad a plethora of different projects and actually the print itself does just fine.

Lisa: I love it and I actually just signed off on it yesterday and it goes to print on Tuesday so it looks beautiful and I'm just so excited about it.

Lisa: So hopefully I was excited and hopefully I'm not confusing the marketplace.

Lisa: This is all about new beginnings as well because the last four years we've done a diary every year and it's always been black and white and anyway I said to my distributors and the retail outlets I said is really in this day and age. And they said they just sell. People just love them.

Lisa: So I decided that this would make it full color and beautiful and happy and joyous and then I said to my team let's put lists all the way through all the things that help all of us each day that it's got lots of checklists about you know all sorts of things about living your best life and how to be a start up and how to make money at all kinds of stuff in there so you get it.

Lisa: I think we all try and control our lives and control what's next. And what I've really learnt is as all as you know kind of your purpose and your why and what you stand for then it's actually beautiful just kind of surrender and detach from outcome and let the universe kind of.

Lisa: That sounds quite we would take care of the rest and so at the moment I'm still writing books, I'm speaking. I'm taking time and space to educate myself and play around with tech. I think is something I'm interested in doing because I know very little about it is kind of trying to evolve a big tech play that kind of serves our community so let's say Watch this space that's going to pick your pick your brain on that.

Lisa: It's interesting I've said it a couple of times in this interview. Bigger isn't better in terms of it's actually fascinating having that many staff and that much you know having that much to pay out all the time. I've never been so cash poor in my life.

Lisa: You know and as I wrote about in Risk & Resilience I sold some properties you know I'll never see that money again whereas actually you know when you're a solo pruner and you're working with freelancers you're actually pretty likely to make a lot more money and have a lot more freedom. So again you know actually that's what my next book which will come out July 2019 it's largely about that working title work from wherever and it's very much around decentralized Tamino as I said using specialists not generalists and so that's that's.

Lisa: That's why I'm in the middle of writing living that life and writing about it at the moment. But the tech play I'm fascinated I've been spending a lot of time with coders.

Lisa: You know it's such a foreign concept to me developers and coders and in a lot of a lot of men it's very heavy in that kind of way.

Lisa: But I'm really trying to learn you know how do you build something big online play so I don't know yet what that will look like but I'm certainly enjoying educating myself and learning an entirely new skill set because it's quite foreign to me.

Mel: I fully focus on that freedom the journey writing from wherever you are. I'm excited that you're writing a new book. I'm your inspiration.

Lisa: You have to be a study in that book.

Mel: A hundred percent, we're just having a little touchy touchy feely moment here everybody you just let us go. You are very big on your daily routines which I am absolutely useless at.

Lisa: Rituals are routines. Having said that my boyfriend gets up at three fifty ninea.m. every morning. I generally get up between 7 and 8. I was so lazy and that. So he started three and a half of four hours work before I even arise.

Lisa: But what I learned is for years I tried to get up at five or six and just slept for some reason. My body seems to work that I need to sleep a lot.

Lisa: I make no apology for that but during the day I am never tired. I have so much energy and people are always commenting.

Lisa: I only have so much energy and I just made peace with it and I stopped being hard on myself and going Oh well surely I can just sleep five hours a night as well and let you know what I need.

Lisa: Eight to 10 hours every night but then I have certain rituals and routines that I find throughout the day and when I started my business 17 years ago the very thought of a routine or a ritual I would have run a mile from. But. Actually it's those things so in the morning you know and meditate and journo I take my dog for a run I could do certain things. I listened to a podcast and had to educate myself and it's generally a try not to open my emails until about 10am because I said before there's a big difference between being productive and being busy. And as soon as I open my emails I'm just busy and I'm reacting to whatever is coming in all that external noise and so I try and be quite disciplined about this. Me time is just to educate myself and get myself into a good headspace really. So whatever works for you I think that's it. Listen to this and to other people but then go your own way.

Mel: A lot of the guys, John Lee Dumas, Tim Ferriss, all those guys they always talk about that morning routine. They usually throw in climbing up a mountain and doing a six hour gym routine as well which I'm not interested in that at all.

Lisa: All you need to do is take the first step.

Lisa: I think this is a fantastic place to finish because it's the beginning of everything isn't it 100 percent and you know I am so not perfect and I really am not terribly qualified.

Lisa: It's just that I am I've cultivated this mindset that anything is possible over years and so you just have to start and it's like you know at the moment I know so little about technology in terms of a big tech play but I'm just like well I'm just going to start you know and I think so many of us keep ourselves small because we're afraid or you know we think that someone else has got it all together.

Lisa: Well here's a little secret. No one really knows what they're doing most of the time.

Lisa: You just start in actually maybe she can be a great thing you know.

Lisa: I literally just go well I just put the next foot in front of you and think well what's the next logical step and. And the nice thing about that is that you know when I started the print magazine you know various other things I've done I didn't know that there were rules. So I did break them because I didn't know they existed and they just kept thinking well who would want to read this or how would they distribute this. Just kept asking the questions and yeah just keep asking why everyday why and how. I think that's the biggest thing you.

Mel: And do it everybody just get out there and do it and then turn around over your shoulder and say why am I doing this. And it works. It truly truly works. From the day I bought your book too now we haven't looked back and we continue to do it now or look over our shoulders and go oh what are we doing. Why are we doing this.

Mel: But if you want to seem busy and fulfilled and continue on that life learning journey you have to because those traditional jobs aren't there anymore are they. And you don't want to end up with less up with a 300 million dollar business that ties you.

Lisa: So too many zeros. So is it hard. For you to achieve. Thank you.

Mel: Now I will have all the places on that list has got her own you've got your own website and you've got the Collective Hub website with those amazing hundred and fifty dollar courses.

Mel: I thoroughly recommend that you name one of those even and this is really important for us. Story writers on how to get your story in front of the media. I read that one and I thought I would have revision period making calls about that because I would have just been their doorstep. But true people don't know to do that do they.

Lisa: So yes that was one of them that I made earlier this year pitched to the media because because think the media and people pitching all the time I just was flabbergasted by how many people were just like a one size fits all in you know and we will publish any one. If they do something that's useful for the reader or they've done their research it's like okay I'll make a course on how to do this so that's gone really well.

Mel: I want everybody who pitches to this podcast to read that please I keep getting lazy. One is about new ideas and to it on the road all the time and I'm going to have a little clue. What shows in their first one they haven't got a clue until I start listening all the time.

Lisa: I will be a big convert and one day I will interview you.

Mel: I am trolling my way everybody through LinkedIn and I have got some really good guess coming up we're sort of doing a little bit of a pivot for the pot with the podcast as well. We've done a lot for the last two years on books and writing and we're moving further and further in to I guess that entrepreneurial headspace and that creative entrepreneur headspace and like you or you know really my transition.

Mel: I'm going to let Lisa go she's been really really crazy and she's got a handsome hero waiting for her.

Mel: Lisa thank you for your time and I wish you all the best in 2019 and we'll certainly put that issue 53 which is issue of issue 3 or Christmas issue special issue but secretly just fine and we'll have issue 53 because they have to go in order don't they for everybody who's been following them for ages so they were collector's item one day because you know they just will be all.

Mel: And that's it from another episode.

Lisa: All right we're on the road thank you so much. You. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank.

About the author, Melinda

I'm an authorpreneur, English teacher and podcaster who dreams of a life on the road full of adventures and handsome heroes, whilst making squizillions of dollars in book sales to pay for my chocolate fix. In the real world, I write novels and non-fiction, and offer my expert advice via online courses (as soon as I make them) and writing retreats (as soon as I organise them).

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