“With small businesses, their greatest assets are all the other people in their network, and leveraging that can lead to big gains.”
Kate Toon is an award-winning SEO copywriter and SEO consultant with over two decades of experience in all things advertising, digital and writing.
She is the founder of The Clever Copywriting School and The Recipe for SEO Success eCourse, the co-host on the Hot Copy Podcast and the host of The Recipe for SEO Success podcast. She recently published her popular business book, The Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur – which also has its own podcast.
Google optimisation is something we have to do as part of our business marketing, along with keyword searches and increasing traffic to our websites. But, often, none of these things are at the top of our To Do lists – well, not on the top of mine, anyway, until now.
Because something has changed, and it’s called Voice Optimisation, and I’m all for it. As of now, words like who, what, when, why and how are driving searches. Yep, talking to our devices and asking questions is all the rage.
As writers, we need people like Kate to cut through the constant noise of what we should be doing to maximise our visibility and find readers for our tomes.
In this episode we chat about the following:
- on page optimisation
- SEO essentials
- the importance of links
- title tags
- optimising images
- the changes to SEO in 2019
- position zero
- algorithm updates
- Google Search Console
- and more…
You can find out more about Kate here. And don’t forget to download your checklist and check out her SEO Nibbles Course, 10-Day SEO Challenge, and all the freebies she has on offer.
Mel: Welcome, Kate.
Kate: Hello. It's lovely to be here.
Mel: Kate is an award-winning copywriter ACA consultant with over 20 years of experience in this stuff. She's the founder of Clever Copywriting School, A Recipe for Success and there's lots little freebies on her website.
Kate: One of the reasons I started my own podcast - I've got three shows - is that I get to talk to some of the smartest people in the world and learn amazing stuff direct from the horse's mouth and to be able to ask my questions, not read other people's questions and answers but ask my questions direct to the expert.
Mel: You have a book out called called 'Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur'. Now we know everyone entrepreneur is a real crazy word at the moment but you're the first misfit that I'm that I've met. So can you tell us all about it.
Kate: I totally agree with you entrepreneurs become a bit of a cliché really it's kind of you see pictures of people lying on a porch counting their money and talking about how they only work for five minutes a week. And I didn't know really what to call myself anymore because I started off as a copywriter. I built up quite a successful copywriting business and then I moved into selling courses and then resources memberships.
Kate: And now I have a conference every year that I run which is a content marketing and copywriting conference. So what do I call myself? I'm a business owner. I'm an entrepreneur. But I never really felt I fit the mold so hence misfit entrepreneur.
Kate: And the book is really a permission book because the subtitle is How to Succeed in Business Despite Yourself. I've bumbled and stumbled and wandered through having my own business I've made a lot of mistakes and I've worried about a lot of things and having a lot of fears but I've overcome them. And so I wrote it's kind of help other people go look I may not look like your traditional entrepreneur and I may not do the things that a traditional entrepreneur does that doesn't make me any less of an entrepreneur.
Mel: Most of the entrepreneurs that I read about and get emails in my inbox about a thousand times a day they've all done two hours of exercise they've meditated they've climbed Mount cozy Moscow and they're all back again and it's all before breakfast.
Kate: Oh yeah and they've had a green smoothie. Don't forget the green smoothie. So you know I work in a little heart in my back garden My mornings are not spent doing yoga and having Greens fuses just running around like an idiot trying to get my son to school picking up dog poo going to calls and getting to my desk not in some kind of Zen on Libyan state but more in a kind of frazzled say and then knowing that I really only have five or so hours to get everything I need to get done before I have to go and pick my son up school again and do all those other things you know most people have responsibilities whether it's kids partners pet parents whatever. And we don't get clear a our days to kind of indulge in a Zen and make money. We just don't get it. So I wanted to really be transparent and show that he can make a decent amount of money have a nice lifestyle. Even if you don't have that beautiful set up that these yoga smoothie beasts have so yeah.
Mel: You work extremely hard but there's plenty of time in between times to to have a life.
Kate: Yeah, there is. I think it is sometimes difficult to set those boundaries because having your own business. It will eat anytime you give it. There is no amount of time that will ever satiate your business is always more you could be doing. You know this other social media channels there's opportunities as you know you should be writing a book. You should be doing this. So it's the should can can really get to you. And I'll be honest. You know I had a couple of years in the wilderness where I was working very hard. I wasn't looking after myself. I was very stressed. I really had to kind of grab myself by the shoulders and say this is not the point you didn't start your own business to become its slave. And I'm now dragging myself out of that kind of mire and really trying to work to live not live to work. That's it's a cliché but it's very easy to fall into that trap.
Mel: What's going to happen in 2019 in SEO-land because things change constantly don't they?
Kate: They do but I guess to a degree the more they change the more they stay the same and I think unfortunately SEO does have a bit of a bad name. The things that frightened people about SEO is that changes all the time be it super technical and say I just don't want to do it. I think that's pretty much it. And so really all the Google and the search engines and try to do with the changes are replicate the human experience. So pretty much anything as a human that you find confusing or you don't like when you go to a website. Google's trying to eradicate that like Google doesn't like pop ups and Google doesn't like sites on secure and Google doesn't like sites that take 25 minutes to load on your mobile phone. Common sense, yeah. So the changes that are happening are pretty much common sense and they'll be known that you go. That's weird. Why is Google doing that. Because they're doing it to make us happier as customers and in terms of the technical stuff. Yes of course you have to have a well built website. But most of the platforms out there like WordPress Shopify square space Wicks we believe Neto big commerce. They are eradicating those technical problems for us. It's in their best interest to fix the bugs that Google wants them to fix. So really that's less and less tech stuff that your average small business owner needs to know about or do because the platform does it already. So then you kind of move into what Cyrus is talking about which is the big things next year. Do what I tell you what they are.
Mel: Yes, please. It's really good to know what we should be aiming for, isn't it?
Kate: It really is. And I think one of the biggest things that probably come as no surprise is the rise of a voice search and conversational search for these there's fewer and fewer people are typing into a desktop computer to find results instead they're talking to their Google Home the Google assistant Siri whatever device I have you can search your fridge they're not sure it's going to answer you back but it's you know someone to talk to on those dark lonely nights and instead of sort of saying you know pizza restaurant where Sydney money What. Hey Google where's the best restaurant in Sydney we asked questions we talk to it so Google can understand those questions now and it can look at the content on your site go. Does this content solve that customer's problem? Does it answer that question? Have they used the same kind of words that the person ask you no formal copy with long sentences and big words.?
Kate: Most people don't talk like that, you know. So that kind of informality of language on your website and the real helpfulness of really giving away your knowledge and share in concert with people. That's what Google wants that's what humans want that what Google wants. So I think voice search is going to compel us as writers to write like humans and really really write for our audience not try to write for audience and not try to sell our stuff in a way our audience might like it but to just help our audience build trust build authority and then they buy. So it's not a hard sell. It's having a conversation like we are now.
Mel: Yeah. And this is and this is what the cool thing is everyone and I've got to admit that I went shopping in summer and we bought a fridge we bought a fridge that was six hundred dollars and doesn't do anything but open and shut.
Mel: But my girls had a lovely time playing with the fridges that had computers in them and they do they just have like four and five thousand dollars everyone so I'm assuming they'll come down but just crazy stuff. But my daughters are also the ones that have laughed at me because when I look for something on a bigger search I actually type what I'm thinking you know where do I find such and such and they say Oh Mummy you're such an old lady.
Kate: You can tell them that they are wrong and mom is right that they are wrong because these days the who what when why how questions are driving Google search and you will notice there's the search engine results have changed. So if you type in you know how old is Obama or where is the iPhone tower you'll get something new now which is called featured answers or featured snippets that didn't used to be there and what it is is Google's best guess. They've searched the whole internet and they put that what they think is the best answer and what we call Position ZERO. It's above the ads even so if you can get your content in position zero you're going to get all the eyeballs and all the traffic to your site which obviously then you can convert.
Kate: And you know you may type that into google. I talked to Google and I know that's what I just said when why what how things. That is what it's all about. So you can turn round your daughters and tell them that they're old school and you are hip.
Mel: I love it.
Kate: I did I 37 speaking events last year and as I said I also have three podcasts one of which is kind of in a fallow period at the moment. I just think people connect so well with voice. I think people connect with video and voice in different ways. So I do a lot of video as well. I think that's very powerful for building a face to face connection with recordings this video on Zoom I can see Linda and we can you can you get those body cues that you just don't get but that our whole experience of listening to a podcast I think it's not like anything else. And I think that often people listen to podcast when they're doing their happy thing they're in a happy place they're walking their dog they're cooking you know. And so you start to associate that podcast with something that you love and it becomes very precious to you. I have a couple of favorite podcasts and I love the presenters in a way that's probably not quite right you know because I've listened to hundreds of hours of them and I'd do anything for them. And in my world which my podcast a little bit businesses which is a shame I'd love to have a non-business one and I hope to one day people by the time they come to buy my first thing they've listened to 50 hours of me and either they're going to like me or not like me but after 50 hours they're probably gonna like me and therefore I don't need to hard sell I've never done a paid ad on Google or Facebook in my life because I don't need to. Podcasts bring me people and video and interaction. So, yes, so so so powerful.
Mel: Something on my list of notes to talk to you about was that difference between video.
Kate: I do think there's a peculiar type of thing that works well on podcasts. I think it's a great medium for storytelling for interviews. But clearly like if I want to instruct someone on how to fix something on their Web site I need those visual cues I need to give to them to be able to see me clicking here and clicking there even just now. I just watched a quick six minute video on how to color correct something in the video. There's no amount of audio that could help me that I needed to see what button she was clicking. So I think it's about what do you what problem you're trying to solve what is the best medium for that sometimes it's podcast sometimes it's video sometimes it's the written word like you know I've written a couple of blog posts I've done really really well because I'm not sure that I've done well as podcasts because sometimes reading something funny just gets you sometimes a simple meme can really communicate more so I think it's I don't think one will take over they say that most people watch something like 40 videos a day even if they don't mean to. Most people watch videos with the sound down as well interestingly. So it's all about having the subtitles. And I just think it's different mediums. I don't think I would ever sit and watch a 40 minute video but I will listen to a 40 minute podcast so short and sweet instructional how to video storytelling longer form content than I think podcast is the go.
Mel: You talk about tags or captions on on your videos. We have to get the basics right. You called it On Site.
Kate: On-site or on-page basically means that you know when someone comes to your website there are certain things you have to do. The most important one is that it loads quickly. So your website - you want to make sure it loads in five seconds or less. Ideally three seconds or less.
Kate: And Google has a tool called google site speed where you can pop your website and you can find out if it does or not. Fixing the problem not quite so easy. Usually most sites it's because they've got giant image files on them and you reduce the size physically in the case size of an image and you're going to sort a lot of problems out. And so speed is a big factor. Being able to crawl your site being able to go to all the pages no blocks and weird things going on. And again Google has tools that will help you with that if you haven't already signed up something called Google Search console. It's fit to get your head around but it's Google's free tool that tells you everything that's wrong with your Web site. And then you may need to get someone to help you fix it but at least you are empowered and your understanding a bit of knowledge goes a long way and then it's other things like we all know some sites are ugly and they take they they've got big flashing images and things popping up left right and center or they've got gray coffee or white background that I can't quite see because my eyes on what they were or or no images or too many images or the copy just bleeds all the way across the page. This is one for us writers why are books this wide. It's because I can't connect to the next line if they're that wide but on Web sites people have copy that runs right the way my screen is this big I'm doing big hands. People like when people how to catch a big fish your copy goes all the way across. I can't bring my eyes to the next lines of readability is a really big factor as well. And not just in terms of visual readability but the language you are using. They say that the literacy rate online is about yes 7. So if you're writing concept that can only be read by an 18 year old or a postgrad you're losing your audience and there's a great little tool called Hemingway dot app which is a free tool that you can pass all your copy through. It will give you a flash Kincaid readability score and it will highlight everything you need to fix all those long sentences and adverbs and fantastic. I use it pretty much every day is free. So.
Kate: As an English teacher my heart just got broken. But unfortunately what you're saying is absolutely true. The average reading age is different because people don't read anymore.
Kate: Our kids don't read much as they preps should as far as I'm concerned. But the reality is they'll run rings around us when it comes to finding something online which. Yeah. And they. I guess they're streets ahead of us so we can't bag them too much for not wanting to to read along. But the going to grow up and be our consumers or their content. So we have to really think about it. And as as writers we're interested in getting our books out there. We're interested in bringing people to us and creating our communities. And I think it was Sara Shepard that said you know what it is our biggest asset is the community that we network with. And that's also true with with writers and we share the words and our readers. And it grows and grows.
Mel: I think there's a checklist on your website and if you subscribe to her newsletter you get this checklist for free and all the tools that we're talking about. There are links to it so we can just link off and come back and check all this stuff out which is really exciting. But one of the things that you mention is having 150 words - at least a paragraph of writing - on every page. Now we're told that people are visual now and all the rest of it and not to have too much words and not enough words and all the rest of it. And then you came up with this lovely amount of goods 150 words and I went oh OK I can do that.
Kate: Yeah well I think look it's it's very subjective. And Google because I'm very lucky that I get to speak to the reps from Google a lot. They come on the podcast I get it from Google and their approaches like the content needs to be as long as the content needs to be. If you're doing a recipe for how to boil an egg can pretty much explain it in three bullet points. If you're reviewing war and peace you might need a few more words. And I think that's the best attitude to take. My attitude is always you don't want it to be like two little brothers scraped over too much bread. You know if you're writing and you feel like you've run out of things to say and you're scraping that butter further and further is going then stop you know. But what I find is that a lot of sites especially e-commerce sites sites are selling items they just sort of say blue jumper made of wool. And it's like no no sell it to me when would I wear that jumper. What does it feel like. What kind of person. Where's that. How do they feel when they wear what. You know try and engage and emote and really draw the reader in whether you are selling them your book or selling them a product or whatever it is we need to write copy that speaks to the hearts and minds of our readers. And if we do that well we will satisfy Google without even having to try. Because if you're talking about a blue jumper you're going to say well it's made of soft wool lamb's wool straight from the hills of New Zealand. It's warm and cuddly and soft and perfect for sitting in front of the fire on a cold winter's day. You know that sells me a jumper but I've also used the word New Zealand lamb's wool wool jumper. Hello. You know I've used the words the Google people are typing into Google without even having to force it. So it's you know it's humans first Google second there's no right amount of content but you know if there's just no words at all What's Google got to read to understand what your contents about it can't see the pictures it can't see the code. It's looking to find the words someone put into the Google the Google engine find those on your page. So there needs to be words on your page.
Mel: How many depends on what you're writing about. Kate chose the woollen jumper image because we're all sweltering here in 34 degrees at the moment here in Australia but over there in England I know you guys are getting lots of snow so appreciate the woolly jumper in.
Mel: Second of all we really need to think about the benefits of what we do so we can share that with others. That's that's something fairly fairly basic so when it comes to keywords and searches and all that kind of stuff. I know at the podcast there's been a lot of people kicked off Apple podcasts first titled stuffing and things like that. There's so many courses that they can do and so many people trying to grab you money to teach all this stuff. But what you're saying is a lot of it's just basic common sense.
Kate: It really is, like you've got to remember that Google search engine but Facebook it's a search engine Instagram's a search engine YouTube the search engine and Apple chooses a search engine anything that has a box that we type into and an index of content is a search engine iTunes search engine is particularly particular and peculiar. So that you know the recommended podcast the ones that you see the new and noteworthy they are manually chosen you are not getting into those no matter how many keywords you shove into your title but the search box. Yes. It's driven by the name of your show. The name of the author of the show the episode titles and the episode descriptions. Yeah. And it looks for keywords in there but you don't want to stuff it in put one of our podcast is called the Hot Coffee podcast a copywriting podcast for copywriters. It's a bit silly but it's not. It's not like copy copy copy but we did it a little bit cheekily. And then there are two sides are just named things like how to write a press release. What would people type into our tunes. We've tried to replicate that in our titles but the other thing with our iTunes is as well as looking for keywords. It also is very much driven by subscription velocity. And rating and review velocity. So it's not just that people are subscribing if you get a lot of subscribers on any particular day your podcast is going to shoot up. It's very important at the end of your podcast that always and anyone listening to this subscribe at the end and leave a five star rating and review because that helps Melinda's podcast become more visible to other people that you're helping her by doing that. So that's a little tip.
Mel: You know everybody right from day one I'm supposed to be asking all that stuff and I don't. Every now and then I get really enthusiastic and I'll send something up to half a dozen guests and say hey can you jump on it also and give me a review. But other than that I don't do this so much that I haven't been doing knowing that I should have been doing it. You're here.
Kate: There's so many things to do. You've got so many social media platforms. I don't do all the things either and I forget and I do think that also things just grow organically and if people like your show they like your show they will tell people about it and no amount of algorithms and tech guru goodness can impact that people just like what they like. It's just that sometimes people would like it but they don't even. You are the cure for their disease but they don't even know that you exist that even though there's a cure for their problem they don't even know this beautiful podcast exists that they would love. So yeah I do think you have to push yourself a little bit and maybe go a little bit out of your comfort zone. So you need to become some SEO guru that can code Web sites but tiny little changes can make a huge impact with Google you've got your site speed down by one second you could jump from Page 40 to page 1 That's how powerful it can be. So it's about having a source of truth. You can trust because there's a lot of conflicting advice. It can be a bit overwhelming. Doing little bite sized things. So that's why one of my course is called SEO nibbles because it's about bite sized chunks. You've only got half an hour today. What could you do. What one thing could you do that's gonna make a difference. So that's how I like to deliver content and little chewy lumps. But yeah.
Mel: I think we all feel that way. I feel overwhelmed with how much there is to do and I do a lot. So I think it's really tough. It's what you write about in the Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur. We get overwhelmed and it's coming at us from all angles.
Kate: You really want to be driving as many people as you can to your hub sites. So any kind of third party site you know something like when people have courses and they put them on sites like teachable or you know it's better to build your empire on your own ground rather than build on other people's. But there is a caveat to that those kind of magazine tools that you have that are really easy to use and you flip through and you get all that functionality that's better for the user. So you know sometimes you have to think about Google and their CEO and sometimes we have to think about user a kind of little compromise might be that you have it on the magazine site but then you also have it as a downloadable PDA. On your own site because PDX can be called by Google and you may also even want to have the articles as long form blog posts on your site so you give people options. Some people like to read blog posts. Some people like to download a PDA. Some people like to go to magazine apps. Some people might like an e-book. You know it's I think it's all about giving. We just thought earlier that some people liked video some people like audio giving people options but at the end of the day every decision you make in your business I think should be about the customer first and the tech second. So if a magazine app is the best way for a customer to digest your magazine go at it and then the other ways you can build that love there's other things you can do.
Kate: I hope it's all right to mention that I have a little course called the Ten Day SEO challenge. That one is a paid one and I do a whole section on image optimization but it is pretty straightforward. You know when you upload an image often we get images of the Internet and a huge you know like two thousand pixels by two thousand pixels. And we don't take the site time to resize them because we know that when it goes on our site it's fitting into a little small box so you can just use preview on your computer or whatever to change the dimensions of your image. That's going to that's going to help straight away. Then there's a great little tool called Tiny P and G P for. The. Pu and for nose G for goat. It's a free tool. You drag your image into it and it spits it out. But it's reduced the file size the load size again that's going to make a big difference in terms of naming it commonsense if you're both post is called How to Win Google love with Kate. That a great name for your image is gonna be Google love Kate to Google hyphen love hyphen Kate hyphen too. For some reason google doesn't like underscores so always use hyphens and then you know you're gonna give the image a title. Well the title is gonna be hard when Google up with Kate to which is a description that's gonna be in this episode. We talked to an about how to win Google love it's common sense you know. So you you think SCA copywriting image image optimization or on page is all about having a focus. It's not about using a certain keyword. Seven percent of the time it's about this post is about hippos. It's about hippos and what they see and and therefore I'm going to use words like hippo and lettuce and humans because I think the hippos eat humans. Did you know that hippos are the biggest that most deadly animal on the planet. I didn't know that. So there you go.
Mel: Kate is a very serious businesswoman and is at the top of the game working with multinational corporations and she wrote a book about a pirate and I was really excited cause I'm writing a pirate at the moment but hers is about a pirate who likes dolphins.
Kate: It's actually very popular with adults. I just I'm going to read you one paragraph. Okay. How can you hold the cover up because we stop putting them up on YouTube again. Well Billie Jean this guy's name is German a parent named Sue.
Kate: It's really the story of Sue. You know it's feminists. She's a feminist icon. So once it was a pirate and his name was wobbly Jim he used to have two legs but a shark took one from him. So now his leg is wooden and doesn't fit quite right. He polishes it with honey and takes it off at night. Jim sells the mighty oceans on his boat the Mary cow. It's painted black and white and has udders on the barrel. He's bought. He eats barnacles for breakfast and seaweed for his tea and washes it all down with a pint of dolphin we get.
Mel: How can we resist.
Mel: Kate has some magnificent stuff on her website and I downloaded the checklist. And it takes you through what we need to do on our pages for optimization. It's got a list of this which has got some exciting stuff on it.
Kate: Like so the good karma as you know of course is about doing nice things for other people but actually by through doing them will actually help you get more Google love. But you know you're kind of primarily doing them with no expectation of return. It's just that they probably will help you. So yeah that's that's one of my courses but it's kind of my whole ethos in business. So I've then you know we've talked to there about the Isle of SEO group. I've also got a clever copywriting community I've got another group called the misfit entrepreneurs. And I give a lot out. I actually have an hour in my diary every week where all I do is go into other people's Facebook groups and answer questions about digital marketing SEO copywriting I don't drop my link I don't try and sell anything I don't want that to be my customers. I just want help people. And I've done that for a long time I think when you do that. People see not just the person who's question you answer but the hundreds of other people who are in the group and you build up. I hope it's my goal I've built up a reputation as being pretty generous and I think lots of people are frightened of giving away any knowledge because I feel like people should pay for that. People should pay for what's in my brain but I'm confident enough is enough in my brain that I can give away an awful lot and they're still going to be an awful lot left. So as you mentioned I have a lot of things that are completely free and other people might charge for. It all seems to work. You know I give out to the universe. I'm not very woo woo. I'm actually quite cynical but I do believe you know if you put good vibes out there it does tend to tend to come back. But it has for me I built a business on just trying to be nice to people and it's worked pretty well. Be a nice human.
Kate: As I said in my book God I love these points of connection. I love talking to people I've met some amazing people through podcasts and being guests and then I sort of feel like you know if in a couple of months you've got like a book you want to promote or something you can hit me up and say hey will you share this new community and I'm gonna go you know cause I am like you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. I love it. You know it's that whole rising tide lifts all the boats kind of thing. And I truly truly believe that it's the best way to be tell your competitors into your community and everyone everyone benefits.
Kate: There's there's a lot you know that you just never know who's going to be useful or helpful or who you can help at a particular time like these connections and you know you kind of go you're talking someone else you go Oh well I took someone on a podcast about that you should connect with them and I love being a connector as well. Sometimes I feel I'm a bit of a pimp but that sends the wrong word. But connecting good people with good people I really enjoy that. People remember people making an effort and being helpful and you know and they were. And I think that really helps build your brand build your authority trust relevancy all those big things that humans are looking for.
Mel: And Google is looking for you.
Mel: Now this podcast everybody has been a lot more general than I expected but also a lot more specific because I think a lot of this stuff and we're talking Google Analytics keyword searches and all the stuff that scares the living daylights out of me.
Kate: I think you can't get away from things like sight speed and crawl ability and just having a good site. That's the foundation. You know you could you could. I know people who come on my course who've been blogging for maybe two years and they've got nowhere. And it's because I find a blog on their site which means that Google can't see their blog posts. You know they're not being indexed so you can't get away from that kind of thing and you know if you need someone to take a look at your site and you know fix it then I recommend some good people in my I love SEO group because I like connecting people I'm not affiliated I just do it be nice and then after that look I think there's so many different ways to bake a cake to make an omelet. What's the expression you are into podcasts and voice whatever other people are doing video. Some people are doing blogging some are great on Instagram some do a little bit of everything and try and be a little bit everywhere. And I think it's a good idea to do one thing. Well obviously you're doing podcasting. Well it there's a few tweaks you want to make and then the other stuff will follow if you can. But trying to be all things to all people never works.
Mel: I think that's probably a really really great place to to finish.
Kate: Up until now a lot of websites have all been about non-fiction but now fiction writers having their own websites having their own Facebook groups putting out things that are of interest about your characters settings all those kinds of things are a really great way to to I guess build that on site interest for your readers.
Kate: Well it's kind of like building a ready made audience. I mean I published a couple of books and crowdfunded themself publish them I'm now I'm talking with a real publisher to get my next book published and I've built up a people a group of people who are ready to buy the next book and they're interested not just in. I do. I've written a poetry book a kids book and a business book. But I would love to write fiction. That's my goal one day but I think it's also just the process. Like what are you doing. How do you write. Where do you write what do you write on. I think people who aren't writers are fascinated by that kind of stuff. And so again you know people get very nervous about putting themselves out there and sharing too much. You have to be sharing everything you do and what you had for breakfast but just little comments and posts and photos about your writing room. But whenever I post a picture of it people go crazy for it because it's really cute. And it's got nothing to do with me as a businesswoman but people love that kind of stuff. So I think that's a great idea. Building a community who want to consume your books fantastic and want to want to know all about it.
Mel: Don't forget all Kate's links will be on the transcript of this podcast.