It’s time to put on our CEO hats and get serious about the business of writing. Nadine Travers chats with us today about how important it is to read the numbers of our businesses; knowing our costs, managing our time, collecting our invoices in one place, having a separate bank account for our business and making sound business decisions such as hiring the services of others based on the data. Alas, I didn’t kick too many goals during this this conversation but it’s never too late to start. As Nadine reminds me, information means power and it’s important that as business people we know where we need to focus our time. And if you’re like me and words like fixed costs, break even points and spread sheets send you running to the corner sucking your thumb then be assured Nadine makes it all sound easy. You can find out more about Nadine, her novels and French translations, and how to organise your finances here.
Writer on the Road is sponsored by Fit N Fifty Plus and you can visit Jennifer and her team here. Don’t forget to mention I sent you:)
Melinda: Welcome to another episode of Writer on the Road. Today we're going to Montreal in Quebec and I've got the beautiful Nadine Travers with me who writes paranormal and time travel stories. Welcome Nadine.
Nadine Travers: Hi, thanks, welcome and happy to be there.
Melinda: Happy to be there. Nadine has a beautiful accent and I believe she's bilingual, I believe you speak French and English Nadine.
Nadine Travers: Yes, true. My native language is French and my second language is English.
Melinda: My daughter and I love we love everything about France, my sister's over in France at the moment, I've got her to buy me some French Mills and Boons so I can come home and read them in French and now I've got my very own French speaker here. But the reason I'm bringing that up so very early in the podcast is because we're going to speak finances but me being me I actually want to talk about the French translation first, far more romantic than talking about behaving myself financially. Tell us about your French translations.
Nadine Travers: I am going to release in 2017 my time travel series in French. So I'm going to test the French market too, that would be pretty exciting to be there. The first book is already translated and I need to do some correction about it but I'm going to translate with, I use a Dragon to do my translation too so it's a fun process to do that. Second book is going to be all fully translated before Christmas. So after that's going to be only revision and I'm going to put that online for the French market and for people all around the world that speak only French. It's going to be good.
Melinda: Okay now to even begin to unpack what Nadine has just said would take a while. Foreign translations for a start, now you have quite a few stories up there for sale, we've got Supernatural Intelligence Agency, we've got Scotland Lovers, Nadine's book have the most beautiful covers which is I guess what attracted me to them in the first place. Nadine how do you go about that or organizing a translation process from where to go. I notice you've got a blog post about it.
Nadine Travers: I was in the search during summer time for my break for my vacation time, if I was able to find expect for Amazon or Kobo have, I can have the French book about it, but more like a system like Draft2Digital but for the French market. I found one, which is the Immortal was it called, so they do the same process as Draft2Digital but for French book with other small market for the French one too.
Melinda: You translated it into French yourself?
Nadine Travers: Yes.
Nadine Travers: I used Dragon for that because it's easier.
Melinda: I know you keep saying you used Dragon and I know you've said that a few times now already in five minutes, I've got no idea what you're talking about.
Nadine Travers: It's what we call self-dictated. So you dictate what you need and your computer's going to type it for you.
Melinda: I understand, so it's just a dictation, that one that we talk about. Okay now I know the dictation that I get here in Australia it's not the professional model, we can't get it here in Australia and so anything that I, I tried talking into it when Joanna Penn talked about it, I thought I'm going to do that as well, that's a great idea. So I was in the bubble bath and I started dictating into this thing and the gobbledygook that came out the other side just cracked us up so we thought we'll never do that again. So you've obviously got a professional package.
Nadine Travers: Yes and I'm using the French one, so that's why, I'm reading my book, I'm reading my book and translating in French each time that I read it so that give me more, it's faster that way then just to type it.
Melinda: We're here today to talk to Nadine about finances, we're in the middle of our five day mini-series, we've exercised ourselves to death, we've been talking about mentoring and coaching and all sorts of things. Today we're going to get our finances straight. Nadine can you tell us a little about your background in finances and how that brought you to the writing world.
Nadine Travers: I've been in accounting for the last 25 years, still in accounting right now as my day job. I did different kind of general company to the services to the real estates, commercial real estates which I'm working right now since 15 years now and I write since I'm little, I was seven years old when I, me and my friend we have to move apart because I was moving another town and we loved Star Wars so we decided to create stories, romance stories with Star Wars character with ourselves. So that's how I started. I get back I was 16 years old, after that I have a story that's historical that I write at that time about it.
Melinda: Yeah and as we're talking if you had to talk us through why organizing our finances is so important as a writer, what kinds of things would you advise it?
Nadine Travers: A few things. You need to, the way I see it, the way I understand because I talk a few writers all the time is that we don't be account for the time with we doing so the planning for the next year and the book release and stuff like that, it's part of the process of the manager to do it, how many times is going to do to write that book, it's going to be three months, four months, so you're able to plan it in advance and so okay next year I'm going to plan for two books, three books, that's part of the manager.
But also you have all the side with somebody call expense, I prefer to call it investment because you invest it in your book by doing, hiring freelancer making book cover, editor, formatting or marketing as some, a lot of thing like this for your book. So those investment is more like to help to produce your book, so you produce a product which is your book and you have different kind of product because it can have an eBook, you can have a paper trade book, you can have the hardcover or you can have the [00:06:45] (unclear) book which is three or four kind different product but the way you write it is going to be write it for the four of them, you're not going to write only one but your cost is going to be reducing, your time is going to be reduced.
But you also, the biggest point is to put it to be, what we call break even meaning if you pay somebody to do your edit, your cover design, is going to have some investment for your book so to be able to break even that mean that your, all your investment be covered by your sales and now you're starting to do money about it. So some people see the money entering but they forgot all the investment that he did at the beginning about it. But he need to be able to break even to say now I'm starting to make money with my book so I can invest on the second one or the third one or the fourth one.
Melinda: Yeah. I think a lot of us forget, we see our little monthly royalty checks come in and I was just talking this morning saying my royalty for the Miner's Wife this month was something like $98 and I went wow, I'm not going to survive without a day job on $98 a month. So I guess what you're suggesting is that we have a reality check right at the beginning.
Nadine Travers: Yes, you need to, for my part if I do my experience I decide to formatting myself so I don't pay anybody to do that. So I think you need to sit down and to see who's I'm going to hire for freelancer, what I can do by myself or some people I say that they are trading some services between them. That could happen too but for that you need to know how many hours you're going to put that to be equal with the other person of it so that's why you need to know how much time you're willing to take so that services are to be resourceful. In that time you're not going to produce another book in the same time but you're going to invest in the book that you have right now.
So that depend on what you prepare to hire doing yourself or do some trading. I think that's the key. You need to know first what you want. I decide to do my formatting for, I'm going to release my ACI first book in [00:09:11] (unclear) next month, I'm working on that but I'm doing myself. Some peoples going to hire people because they don't know about, I have another friend, she's doing a cover design because she's using 3D graphics which is pretty gorgeous about it, so that depend how you be comfortable and what you able to pay for it or able to do for yourself.
Melinda: Yeah and I know everyone I listen to and everything that I read it says if we're going to be business people as indie authors then we have to keep good records. Now even with my podcast I'm all over the place, forget my writing, my looking at my desk and I'm going wow I don't even know where anything is, how I would I possibly know what's going in and going out. What tools do you suggest Nadine?
Nadine Travers: I will suggest, some people's going to put shoes box, going to put all the thing that you need. First all you need all to keep your records, invoicing, invoiced by internet if you use a PayPal, PayPal [00:10:17] (unclear) all the transaction, even though your bank account which, one of the first important when you do a business like this you need a separate bank account versus your personal one for government purposes to show them that you want, event though you're not incorporated or you're not a company legally you're a sole partnership in some way so you need a separate bank account to separate your personal finances versus your career finance.
That's the first step to be doing in the business type. So that way you're going to track all the transaction, put the invoices all together and now some government, I know that some people, I know in Canada is going to be three, it could go back for five years back. So I suggest to scan it and to put it somewhere like Dropbox, something like that to keep it, keep your record when you have it all done, finished, you scan it and you keep it pretty precious about it.
Melinda: I failed at number one everybody. I didn't even get off point number one Nadine. I've got my Tropical Writing Services business and I've got my ABN and I know you call it something different over there but it's my tax number. But my bank account is where all my money goes which is not a lot of it, you've made me sad.
Nadine Travers: It is, it's the first rule because you need to separate what is business and what is personal because if your government could go and check your book and they're going to see, usually they give you a year when you started to manage everything and to put everything together. After the second year they say that okay your second year great in your business it should be more serious so you should be having a bank account. It could be a check account, it's not something pretty exhaustive to do about it, I have a check account separate from my thing for my business as a writer and I have my personal account with my husband and my family's.
So that way that keep track, so I can list to grab my look I have this, this start to actually pass through, I have the invoices about it, it's easier to track because the way I see it for them, especially, not if you buying a course for writing, I'm pretty sure the government knows because it's your writing business, but if you buy some papers, ink, if you want to buy a laptop for your company and you put their personal, the government say this is a personal purchase because how they may know that is for business reading it. So if you put in your business related account now they're going to know okay this is for her business, that why she passed it through to her bank account for her business.
Melinda: Okay, so that's number one is a cross, what's number two? See if I can get it this time.
Nadine Travers: Sorry, number two is keep your things, the more closer that you get for your invoices. I know that Amazon provides some excel spreadsheets when you have your sales and your exchange because you're in Australia, I'm in Canada and the money is different so we have some exchange versus the U.S. and everything like this, so that became, you have to do it both ways because I do some freelancer for editors in U.S. so I pay much for that because I have my U.S. exchange regarding this depending on the money how the thing it is. That will be the same thing when have sales on Amazon U.S. I'm going to have the price in U.S. and they're going to convert it in my money to transfer it into my bank account. So that too could be tricky because both of them you need to account for because it's money more that you have, it's money more that you expense or you invest in your company.
So the thing is take out the spreadsheets over at Amazon. If you one in Kobo too, Kobo will send you an email each month for your royalties, Draft2Digital will also, I don't know for Smash Word because I don't use it but those kind of company going to give you spreadsheet for your month for the royalties and the rest keep all track of all your invoices, your investment, editor, book cover if you buy some paper because you need to print your book to put, to do your review or your correction manually, this become part of your business too. So that need tricky. That's all the cost, that's why it called investment.
But you have other cost too with fix costs. Fix cost which mean it's not related to your book but is related to your brand, meaning web design, web hosting, if you have a virtual assistant, if you have a PA, some bigger one, I don't have it but some do. If you using other services that's not related to produce a book or like your case in the podcast you have some cost that of investment for your podcast, it's they are for your podcast. But web design or web hosting is more like your brand, it's more like your name so that's something that usually is fixed or I think you can buy a package for one year, two years or three years. Some people going to pay each month, but that depends on how your thing it is, how you set it up your stuff.
I have a VA for my part, which I pay him two, each two months, so it's regularly a cost, that's why we call it fixed because we know every two months I'm going to have an invoice from him regarding this. That's how the thing is work. But it's for my promotion, it's for my brand, it's for my, it is related to my book but it's not really marketing for my book. Facebook ad for a book is for the book production cost. So that's two different things, we need to separate those two.
Usually fixed cost you're paying your mortgage, you have your apartment, you're renting part of it, part of it you're able to tuck in your business because you're doing your business inside of your house too. So some stuff there are fixed but already paid those thing because everybody's going to have to live somewhere, you paying your internet, you have your telephone, your cellphone whatever you're using. You have those already so that mean you can deduct it, but not all of it because you have to take personal part of it. But portion's going to be professional wise, yes you can do that. That is a fixed because it came back each month at the regular pace.
Melinda: Okay well I'm, my accountant has suggested some of that stuff and that's two crosses everybody. I really am going to get this stuff sorted out I promise and that's why I've got Nadine on here to help me. Number three?
Nadine Travers: Yeah. Number three I think that if you want to push a little bit further the breakeven point is the fun part because you know that you're going to cover all your investment that you did for the book. Now you're starting to make your real money, accounting wise. You already make money because you have royalties but you did investment about it. It's like you're putting money in the bank until you have in the interest to cover what you already put in the bank you're not really making money around it, so that's the same process.
So by doing that, when it's time to make money about it you can take that money and invest in a second book, you can take that money and pay your [00:18:27] (unclear) for the year, you can take money and help you buying material that you will need for you example your podcast and stuff like that and your microphone or your new computers or stuff like this. So that's all depend on what you want to do with your, what we call the break even. So the thing is to grow the fastest that we can to that breakeven point. I think that's one of the key about it.
Melinda: I know, look we all try very hard don't we everybody to I guess cover our expenses and in this day and age with all the things that you talked about earlier, we've got our eBooks, we've got our hardcover, oh sorry, our softcover print books and we've got our audiobooks and now we're talking foreign translations. I guess if we don't write them down things could get very confusing very quickly.
Nadine Travers: That is true because you got to have some investment for the audio book an example, you're going to have the narrator probably if you don't do it yourself to pay. But that is for, only for the audio book. But all the other costs, probably some modification for your cover but your basic of the cover is already done, it's already just an extra you're going to pay, it's not so much money about it.
So you know for the audio book your breakeven point is going to be closer to get that an eBook if is the first book you release because you're going to have the edit, you're going to have the cover to be done, you're going to have the formatting to be done, which you don't have to do in the ECX or audiobook about it. So some product break even's going to be the fastest, better, faster than an epub in some way because your investment's going to be less than the previous one you're going to do because usually people, the way I see it, they're going to release the eBook first, after that is going to be print on demand with Create Space or Light Source and after that they're going to jump in the audio book. In some of the case they're going to jump in translator at some point.
But the basic is all there, your story already written, you know. Your ideas is already passed true expect if you want to translate in another language you're going to need another edit about it because just to see if any mistakes whatsoever. But beside that you don't going to have any development, a content editor for that which has cost a lot of money but it usually. So that means that will be covered for your first version, so those investments going to be split up in four or three or five different product so your break point for each product is going to be shorter to gain in some point. So that's become the beauty of that.
Melinda: Nadine I have to stop you right there you've given me a bit of a headache. Do I not, do I have to create a breakeven point for every product?
Nadine Travers: No, no.
Melinda: Can I just shove it all in a shoebox and add it all up at the end?
Nadine Travers: No, I think if you have, if let's say one book and you have four different kind of product for that book I think at the total for that book you're going to have the breakeven because you have different readership, you're going to have different market, you're going to have different thing. But I think the more that you do some product for the same book the closer you're going to get to break even.
Melinda: Good because we're just, I'm just about to box, I've got some middle grade fiction novels and I've got three of them and I'm just throwing them into a box set with Draft2Digital mainly because we can nowadays. Boxing them up actually adds another product to the list doesn't it?
Nadine Travers: Yes it is, that's another product and it's a fun product because you only have the cover and the formatting to do because the book is already written.
Melinda: Yeah and that's the part I like as well is my cover designer he's done all that work, I've just got to put it up there on Draft2Digital which is one of my things which I'm going to, going to do and this finance stuff is on my list of going to, going to do as well. Software, see hey everybody I'm happy to admit that I'm the kind of writer that accountants just cringe when they see come through the door, but my accountant has put me notice as I go full time and stop teaching all together that I need to get this stuff organized. At the moment, last year he just asked me to pull half a dozen things off my bank statement and that covered our profits, I think we had to make about $4,000 or something. So I'm hoping this year it'll be a little bit more with our online course and a few different things that we're doing. How do you keep track with the software?
Nadine Travers: What do you mean for the software? Oh which software are you using for that?
Melinda: That's what I'm asking what software should I use?
Nadine Travers: You can use several like Excel or if you don't want to invest in Excel you can have open office which is free on the web and you have a spreadsheet inside of it and that could do the trick for now.
Melinda: I love how you Excel and simple in the same sentence. I'll get my daughters onto that, that's another job for them. I was interested when you said you had a PA. He does a lot of your, what, run of the mill stuff for you?
Nadine Travers: Yeah, my PA which is doing some, he's doing some of my social because I'm working full time and I'm mother, wife and what come with it and my time is pretty short. So I'm trying to produce more materials to be more comfortable and maybe in five years going to be full time like you are Melinda which I'm not right now. So I didn't have the time to put everything in social media or putting some content in social media like Twitter, my Facebook. Twitter's pretty rock this time, he's doing pretty good job about it. So he's doing that for me, I'm paying for that. I'm going to add new services, he can do your newsletters, he can track of some kind of stuff that you want. That depend how you want to set up your thing with your virtual assistant.
Melinda: Yeah and everybody I've got to tell you that I promised that I was going to send my newsletter regularly, I paid for AWeber probably twelve months ago, about a month ago I sent out two newsletters two weeks ago and that's what happened to that as well, going to, going to, going to. There are so many things that we've got to do and do well.
Nadine Travers: I know and especially when you're starting you have to learn the craft, you have to learn this, you have to learn genre, you have to learn web designer, so it's a lot of thing to cover, really, really is.
Melinda: Yeah but I think getting this business side of it right at the beginning and this is what I hear from the professionals all the time and we listen to Joanna Penn and all those kinds of people is get it right at the beginning because otherwise it's going to cause headaches down the track.
Nadine Travers: Yeah we have, sometimes creative people forget that when you do a business like we're doing right now, we are the CEO of our business even though we don't want to, we say we're a writer but we are entrepreneur too. That mean we are a CEO of our business that we own right now. My material, your materials belong to your, you’re the CEO of your podcast. Some peoples though be shocked at the term because they okay CEO is big business, being billionaire, whatever it is. No, CEO is somebody who owns something that they make money with, that's what it is. So we have to put the hat, I love to find that I'm doing that in accounting because I have different company I have to work with, so I'm changing my hat. So I have my hat for writing, I have my hat for editing, I have my hat for formatting, and I have my hat for the CEO. So in that case, that case when I have to do it I put my hat, okay now I'm the CEO and I'm going to do my stuff for business related.
Melinda: Yeah and I'm sitting a lot higher in my chair now everybody because I've got a title, I usually just have a t-shirt and Nadine and now you've given me a title as well. It's all getting better and better. Now I've written down the three things, the bank account, the exchange and spreadsheets keeping our money and our fixed costs and breakeven point. Is that it?
Nadine Travers: It is the basic. With that you can be able to track your thing. Those information you can gather is the same thing we do for research when you do a book, this is something you could tweak and have more information in order to do marketing, in order to do, expand your business in order to make some other kind of money. I know that Joanna Penn put like bucket, you doing bucket for writing, you doing bucket for podcast, online course is another bucket of money that came to because it's not the same people, they are different kind of people, maybe all of them is going to have it in the same three bucket but some of them going to be the first one, some of them is going to be in second, some of them is going to be in the third.
So that way it's easier to track where your money come from and with that we're going to see okay, which is what we call my thing that I can relate and put and say okay I'm going to be a full time writer because my online course provide me that kind of money each month since from last year so I know if I counting by this minimum I'm going to probably have the same kind of money for the next year after that. So with that we can sit and say okay now I can quit my job, it's okay I have this, this I need to work with because it's a little bit weaker but something you can tweak it, so it's the way to seeing the information about it.
Melinda: Yeah and of course I do everything back to front, I've quit job and then I'm going to earn some money. So I have this vision Nadine that you've drawn for me of me standing at the front of my house with my three buckets at my feet asking people who will pass to throw money into it because it might get to that stage quicker than you think.
Nadine Travers: Yeah, I think that the principal of buckets is fun because don't forget when you have a day job you have only one bucket, it's your day job. So when you lose your day job you don’t have any more bucket. In our case if you have a lot of bucket which a lot, which Joanna Penn told me in one of the thing that she did and if one of the buckets is removed for whatsoever reason you don't really have to, those two is going to provide it for you.
Melinda: Yeah and I think--
Nadine Travers: The thing is to diversified the thing that's the way it is.
Melinda: Yeah and I think that's something that becomes very clear very quickly in the world that we live in at the moment is there is no such thing as security and that having all your eggs in one basket is actually riskier than being and independent publisher and doing all these different things isn't it?
Nadine Travers: Yes. I agree with that and even my husband is starting to think differently to what his day job and doing other thing on the side. So I think that because, that will come the norm in some point in the future.
Melinda: Yeah one of the things I'm going to ask you immediately, you translate your books or you are translating your books into French, are you going to offer that service for like people like me?
Nadine Travers: I'm not a big corrector but could be, could be something that in the future could be.
Melinda: I tried to get my middle grade novels translated into French because my daughter and I wanted an excuse to go and go through all the bookshops in France and she's doing the International Baccalaureate here in Brisbane and we went to her French teacher and we asked this woman would she translate our middle grade books into French for us but I don't think they were academic enough for her and she wanted to charge me something like $2,000 or $3,000 and I went--
Nadine Travers: Oh my god.
Melinda: I thought oh that's not going to happen anytime soon. So the minute you're ready to do business Nadine I will put you in one of my columns of money, not fixed cost but another cost and I think you should translate my middle grade novels for me.
Nadine Travers: I will think about it.
Melinda: Now you are creating an online course?
Nadine Travers: Yes I am.
Melinda: How many modules would you do for what you've just walked us through?
Nadine Travers: So far I'm in the stage, I'm in the starting stage about it. I'm trying to do two different kind of product which is going to be pretty the basic one because some people's only need the basic and that's okay with it and I want to do a little bit, bringing people to think, to know more about the numbers and to play with it. So that will be a little bit more intermediate or high level of knowledge, but that will be probably more module that way. So I'm going to try to do two different thing to it. The most people, because I know people when I talk about it is like I think it's worse than doing marketing when you're going to start to talk, no we do creative, this is not in the same spot. Yes, you want to be an entrepreneur you need to know that, that's one point it is. I know it's scary so I'm trying, I will try two different bundle for, I don't think people need all the thing that they need but at least to have the basics and try to learn with it.
Melinda: Yeah and one of the things that hits me immediately, if I sat down and did what you said and I planned out my 2017 and my year of living creatively, if I knew what I expected to produce and where the different monies were coming from or had the potential to come from, I could focus my attention on the thing that needed it most. I know when you've got your books at say Amazon and iTunes and Kobo focusing on one or the other at any one time can increase your income from that one spot. So I guess that's another advantage of it as well.
Nadine Travers: Yes, because you, with the report and you know that where you making money, where you're going more sales, so if you say okay I want to release the second book of that series I have, I'm going to [00:33:44] (unclear), iTunes is going to have two books but I have fifty book on Amazon, maybe I'm going to try a KDP so like that second book and put it only on Amazon for 90 days and just see if cannot boost my readership about it too. So this is information that you need like as an entrepreneur to see where it came from your money because I can tell you at the beginning my book are more selling in Amazon but my time travel for whatsoever reason is starting to sell almost the same that Amazon on Barnes and Noble.
Melinda: Okay, yeah.
Nadine Travers: That's getting tricky and now Kobo's start to hit too. So that's kind of information is fun to see, it's not really number, crunching number and stuff like that, it's to see the thing is okay, that series seems to be more stronger on Amazon versus in Barnes and Noble, okay I'm going to focus on that series on Amazon only and try to use KDP select for that because I'm going to earn more money because I got to add the free promotion and thing like that. Or you're going to say oh this line is getting more and more and more in Trench and Kobo than the all rest of it.
Now is the playing about it. It's time to be the fun about it because you're starting to have information that could position you at the better market at the better place and have the better readership, the same place that we know that the second is the German and probably the third market is the French one. But India's coming too because there, so that's where how you know they will sell, they will probably, I buy, I sold a few books in India and even in Spain, I was pretty surprised.
But it's the fun part too Amazon's something that could be very fun but you know in Kobo I sell more books for New Zealand versus Amazon. My books are selling more on Kobo for Australia than Amazon are right now for the same book. So that kind of information is fun to tweak because can say okay that can be good to do giveaway, we could do promotion, marketing, that's that kind of information you need to push forward your book in getting more sales at some point.
Melinda: Okay, so look this makes so much sense to me Nadine, even as you're talking and we're getting away from the basics into how we can use these numbers that you've pointed out. It does get very exciting, I don't have a head for it in any way, shape or form I'm absolutely 1000% useless, but I do know on my podcast there's a circle there and it tells me the percentages of my listeners in various countries. And that, I guess that reach it growing every day and more little colors come onto my circle and I get very exciting, so I can see how that would be of benefit to me as well with my books. I don't think Ingram Sparks has anything like that, and that's who I'm with, but I'm just starting to experiment with Draft2Digital and I know they've got an excellent dashboard there that'd tell me what was selling where.
Nadine Travers: Yeah, they are good and for some reason they probably do promotion, I don't know what it is, but I didn't do any promotion Barnes and Noble and my book is starting to peak so I don't know what is happening.
Melinda: So is there any last minute advice for people like me?
Nadine Travers: I would say start to learn about your CEO hat and start to embrace it because if you want to be living about it you need to be a CEO, you need to be an entrepreneur in some way, and it's your benefit, it's your company, it's your way to want to see it, is the way you want to be it. So if you want like me, I want to be in five years retired for accounting and doing full time writing and doing courses helping other writers and probably helping writers in French which we don't have any market for that yet. That is some way I need to do, I need to know the numbers, okay and try to deal with it. It's not a perfect science but it's a hint where to hit.
Melinda: Yeah and look Nadine I fully hear what you're saying, you had me sitting up in my chair when you put my CEO hat and now I'm climbing under the table because I've been so naughty and I feel like I've been playing at this everybody now, as you know I've been working two jobs and I've been getting the podcast up and the books and all sorts of things but Nadine's absolutely right, without this information that we can get so very easily we really are just playing at it aren't we?
Nadine Travers: Yeah. I don't know, it's like crafting writers, numbers, doesn't add up at some point. But they want to know but they are afraid. Don't have to be afraid because that is a tool, the same way that Scrivener is a tool, the same that Grammarly is a tool, the same way that an editor is a tool for you. So it's only a tool to help you.
Melinda: I have been avoiding the money situation simply because I don't have any. Nadine I hope the next time that you and I talk that I've got better news for you, you have given me a wake up a call and hopefully everyone out there as well took something from our conversation but I just want mention not only is Nadine and accountant, I just want to go a little bit more into, it'll take me two minutes, her books are beautiful and the Scotland, Scotland something, what's that word?
Nadine Travers: Scotland Lovers
Melinda: Oh Scotland Lovers how could I miss that word and it's paranormal romance thrillers that send a chill down your spin while your left thinking about what happened. I think it's what the hell happened, I think that's what it is. Nadine's books are absolutely beautiful and they remind me, who's that big writer Diana Gabaldon is it?
Nadine Travers: Gabaldon.
Melinda: Yeah, your books remind me very much of hers, that style of cover.
Nadine Travers: Yeah both cousins, Scottish, it's pretty bare naked chest sometimes, most of the time on the cover which that's okay it's the trend.
Melinda: And she writes time travel as well doesn't she?
Nadine Travers: Yes, yeah. Her Outlander is time travels.
Melinda: That's right, yup, I remember that now. Look Nadine thank you very much it was Nadine's first time on a podcast everybody and I think she's done absolutely beautifully. Thank you I'll put all the links to Nadine's website up. She is making an online course and when that becomes available I'll certainly put that up as well so that we can, people like me and you can take advantage of that. Thank you for being on Writer on the Road Nadine Travers.
Nadine Travers: Thank you Melinda taking the time to interview me, that was pretty fun to do.
Melinda: Okay and we'll talk soon, it’s bye from Writer on the Road.